The world of George R. R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire has captivated audiences on an immense scale on both page and even though many years of the world have been covered through novellas, spin-off series and encyclopaedias, one moment in Westeros history still is up for much speculation and debate with the fans.
Robert Baratheon’s rebellion and the fall of the last Targaryen King is a vital moment, with no real answers about the intricacies of the build-up. Yes, some questions are answered in the HBO series Game of Thrones, but the details and other questions have remained unanswered since the final episode aired in 2019.
Now, some of the questions are answered. Written by Duncan Macmillan and directed by Dominic Cooke, The Royal Shakespeare Company brought to life the fateful tourney at Harrenhal where fate, prophecy and succession are tested with Game of Thrones: The Mad King. At the centre of it is the eventual king, Robert Baratheon, played by Callum Woodhouse.
You’ve been involved in The Mad King play since research and development sessions for the last three years. To go from that to completing the run at RSC and now to going to London, how has it been seeing the progress and the acclaim for the show?
I’ve never had a harder job. It was the most physically demanding, all-consuming job I’ve had. I loved every second of it and kissed my life goodbye for three months in a way and wouldn’t change it for the world. I don’t know what life was like before this play. I’ve been involved for three or four years, but the play has been in development with Dominic Cooke (director), Duncan Macmillan (writer), and George R.R. Martin before I came onto it. It’s only me, Michael Abubakar (Ned Stark), and Islam Bouakkaz (Howland Reed), and the puppeteers have been involved since the third workshop. When I did the first research and development, I was Brandon Stark. I was loving it, but it didn’t feel right. I remember watching the guy who was playing Robert and thinking I wanted that part. The second R&D they called but I said the part wasn’t right for me, but they said they wanted me to come back for Robert, and I came on board. First time playing Robert in that, I thought this was the one. He is, without a doubt, my favourite character that I’ve ever played in my life. I absolutely love him so much and I want to play him for as long as I can.
I have never seen anything like The Mad King; it was quite overwhelming.
It felt like that being in it. It was overwhelming but it helps with the journey, and I thought if I let myself be overwhelmed it would help and it did. Everything about it helped the journey of the play.
Robert isn’t in the book too much and only in the first season of the HBO show, so he’s not often mentioned as a character with depth or a favourite, but I noticed since the play, he has many more fans.
I’ve noticed that as well, and you can’t ask for a bigger compliment. A lot of people were at the stage door telling me they hated Robert and didn’t like him at all from the TV show, but after seeing the play, they saw how he became jaded and broken, and they could empathise with him. You can’t ask for a better review than that!
He really was put through a lot in the play. Rhaegar comes in and right away wants to talk about how much Robert must miss his parents, and Robert is just like [laughs] shut the fuck up!
People could really connect to him and his grief and how he masked it while still being the life of the party but still deeply grieving his parents’ death.
The writing was amazing and helped so much. The comparisons Duncan made with Robert’s phobia of water because of what happened with his parents and his PTSD is all connected to the water. Every time he’s having this surge of grief, he talks about the tide and when he has this beautiful moment with Lyanna after Areys’ gift, he gets carried away with her, and she bites back. He has this small monologue where he doesn’t know how to express himself but finally does and tells her he’s been drowning. He’s been drowning metaphorically, but getting drunk, drowning in both senses of the word, and the writing was an entire gift to an actor.
In that scene with Lyanna, we see a glimpse of what could have been with Robert and Lyanna.
It was one thing that we spoke a lot about during rehearsals: that they would have had a great marriage. It wouldn’t have been your typical medieval marriage where she’s at home; they’d have been out hunting together and almost like bros. You just can’t compete with prophecy. It would have been a unique marriage not typical of the world that they’re in and they’d have worked great together.
The scene where King Aerys II gifts Robert the splintered ship remains in a tank; all around me, I heard people gasp and have strong reactions.
Every night received amazing reactions. There were even some nights when people laughed. I think that’s an honest reaction because when you’re so shocked and applaud by something, your brain doesn’t know how to compute it, so nervous laughter is such a human reaction. I remember the laugh so clearly, and there are moments of laughter that are intended to be funny, like when I say, “swing a fucking hammer,” but you can hear the difference in the laughs between a line like that and the one with the gift. They don’t understand what’s going on, and I enjoy the reaction to that scene.
It’s one of the most talked about moments for how cruel and funny it is.
The other thing about that moment is when we were in rehearsals is about how the Mad King is away with the fairies but that gift moment, there was no way that was anything other than pre-planned. To the point where he would have to have come to Harrenhal with it, and it's huge, so he must have thought about it weeks before doing it.
And one of the most important people to have a reaction to the gift scene was George R.R. Martin. I spoke with Michael Shaeffer (Aerys Targaryen) after a performance, and he said it’s not a canon moment, but one of George’s favourite scenes.
He loved that moment!
George R.R. Martin is, rightly, so protective over his work; having such a momentous seal of approval from him- what was that like?
It was unbelievable. We received big pages of notes from him, and one thing he said was, “my notes from the play: I have no notes,” and then listed the things he loved from the play, which was basically everything and to get that email was incredible. George loved Ned and Robert's relationship in the play, which felt wonderful and like magic to get that seal of approval. I remember him writing about everything and loving it all. I think he was a fan of Robert Baratheon which was great because he understood the journey from how Robert becomes who he is in the show, and George said he really wanted to introduce me to Mark Addy, and I would love that!
I could see where your Robert becomes the show of Mark Addy.
Completely. We were trying to do that in some way because we are doing an adaptation of the book not the show so not trying to recreate the show, but the show is canon, too. The characters need to end in a place where it makes sense for where we see them in the show. Robert's final scene in the play, just before the coronation, we need to see him almost like the Mark Addy version, but the whole play's journey needs to make sense for that scene.
The play has invigorated the love for the world after having strong opinions about how certain things ended in the original or the changes in House of the Dragon. The biggest praise about the play is from George R.R. Martin, and the fans noticed.
It must be incredible for him. He has very publicly said that his views on House of the Dragon differ from the books, and for him to come and see an adaptation of his work that is so faithful must be so amazing.
It was really collaborative for everyone involved. We had George’s representative with us, and if we had any questions, they would be there. Sometimes there’s no answer to something, and we were told to play with it. At the beginning of the play, Rhaegar sings in High Valyrian the song of ice and fire, and I asked if Robert would understand High Valyrian because he’s from a well-educated house and might have been taught. They weren’t sure if he would understand it and asked my thoughts. I thought it made for a better story if he did understand, so the representative agreed and went with it. Robert has Targaryen blood, so it made sense.
Online, everyone calls him grandpa, and I’ve seen a lot of “this is the most grandpa has smiled in years” about the play.
It was sweet, and when we met him, he was so lovely, and he was so happy. He saw it twice, and the second time he saw it was only two of three nights after the first time. George invented everything, so everything stems from him. We had a representative of his that was with us throughout the entire rehearsal process, and she was wonderful, but we had one on time with George when he came to the play. He was chuffed with it.
It transitioned what we know from the books and show and filled in some gaps without even asking the questions. Even the parallels with Robert and Aerys at the start of their reign and the end. The two of them not having support for their PTSD, and Robert then losing Ned and Lyanna, opened a way for more corruption to get in once they have the throne.
Funnily enough, in Act One, when it’s just Aerys and Rhaegar, and they talk about how the Gods flip a coin and whatever else, but Aerys says the gods don’t flip a coin; it’s the throne that makes you mad. He’s right. There’s madness, but not in the same way it did to Aerys. You see Robert and everyone bows to him like Tywin; he’s made King, and then the next time we see him, Robert is ordering the death of children. There it is. That’s what it does to you.
When Robert says, “a baby girl and a boy ought not to be too hard to fight for my brother,” there’s a detachment to it.
At the start, he had an energy, and then at the end he has this acceptance, but everything is depleted. The journey that Robert had, it’s a gift to an actor. Cathartic and so fun with the incredibly emotional and character driven moments with beautiful dialogue, and then the rest of the time I was running across the stage in full armour. It’s like someone took my dream job and let me do it on the stage with all of that. I felt so lucky the entire time. If things were difficult or I was exhausted, I’d just think This is what I’m doing, and how I wish I could tell seventeen-year-old me about it and my head would explode.
And that development is even shown in the line about “let our sorrow unite us for we are all citizens in grief,” because Robert hears that from Rhaegar, but then Robert opens his coronation in it. The respect of using that showed a lot more depth to Robert.
Interestingly, Robert did that. I had two trains of thought with it that I went back and forth with a lot and didn’t decide on one. Even while you’re doing the play, you’re still discovering stuff. Some nights I said it as if he hated Rhaegar, but this was the one thing he said that rang true, so he was going to hold onto it. Other times I played it where he didn’t remember who said it. He just remembered that he heard it once before. Even if he couldn’t remember if it was Rhaegar who said it, it still was, and it was still so important to him that he remembered it years after Harrenhal.
With Robert being so slighted, it wasn’t just Rhaegar. There was the gift from Aerys, crowning Robert’s betrothed Queen of Love and Beauty, then the abduction, or so Robert thinks.
Not just that, but Robert’s parents died coming home from a journey of trying to find Rhaegar a bride. They went out to do that, and he found one while they were away and summoned them back, where he died, and then he stole Robert’s bride with the gift in between. How much can a person take? I totally understood why Robert hated Rhaegar so much.
With Robert’s PTSD and how it’s so tied to water, and how the Mad King’s grief and PTSD is tried to the fiery tragedy of Summerhall. It was interesting how the effects of both these tragedies are so present and linked. Robert and Aerys had a few interlinking moments even if they didn’t know it.
Which makes Aerys’ cruel gift even harsher. The PTSD element is something we spoke a lot about in rehearsals, and Dominic had a professor who specialised in PTSD who came in to talk us through the intricacies about what it is, how it would affect a person, and asked questions relevant to that and our characters. As well as speaking about it generally, he tried to speak about it in a way that matched the world. In Westeros, nobody knew what it is. A lot was talked about how someone would be when they don’t know what they are dealing with. PTSD was one of the most prevalent themes in the play. The main thing I asked him about was the phobia of water, how that translated. For Robert’s whole life, he didn’t have a phobia of water, and for two years, that’s appeared with the death of his parents, so I wanted to know how that would manifest, and it was an incredible help with the characterisation of it with the moments when Robert gets lightheaded. Moments when the tide takes him, when the tide takes him and he collapses into Ned’s arms, and how to make it look believable.
One of the most anticipated things I was looking forward to is the Robert and Rhaegar fight. It was intense and relentless.
It was really demanding and physically exhausting, but in that particular fight there was such specificity. I’m in this huge suit of armour with iron gauntlets, and I’m trying to slip my hand into the puppet strap to take control of the Robert puppet while still looking aggressive. There are so many little details that you have to keep in mind and work with seven different puppeteers. The Robert and Rhaegar fight was the hardest thing to get right. It was completely different until two weeks before we opened. What we did on the stage, we did our first run-through two weeks before we opened. Dominic (director) watched and said it wasn’t right, so we had to go back and start from scratch with the fight. It was incredibly daunting, but I’m so glad we changed it. He is generous, and what we ended up doing was so perfect. There’s a lot more human connection in the moment. Before, it was all puppet and no moments of me and Noah Ritter (Rhaegar Targaryen). The fight is the end of Robert’s arc, wanting to kill Rhaegar, and there was no human connection at all, so that change was a huge benefit and one of my favourite parts of the show.
As a book and show fan, that moment in the play was one of the best. It was immersive, and you felt every blow. People next to me were gasping in shock or wincing.
[laughs] Really? That’s great. It’s amazing that we elicited the reaction from the audience, especially after the changes and all the work everyone put in the scene. That it went down so well after we destroyed our bodies for it.
The moment when Noah Ried as Rhaegar walks off stage when you as Robert Baratheon keeps hammering the character was visceral.
I loved that bit! I sort of blacked out every night at that scene; it’s weird. I remember Michael as Ned runs on, shouting my name and trying to snap me out of it. He sort of did snap me out of this weird trance I was in. When you’re doing something like that, and it’s at the very end of the play. It’s exhausting, and I’m sweating in this armour, in a trance. It was a very weird place in the character.
I’ve seen a lot of talk about the final fight and whether Robert would yield until Lyanna’s name was spoken.
I don’t think Robert would have ever yielded. I think there was only ever one of them walking off that battlefield, and Robert is too full of anger, vengeance, and bitterness and felt he’d been so wronged by Rhaegar. Robert is too proud, brutish, and instinctive. He’s one of those characters that just takes action. Lots of characters talk about doing things, but he is action first and then thinks. I think his rage is what lost the battle. If Rhaegar didn’t have that vision, Robert would have been killed, and the main reason why he lost is that he was so angry. Rage blinds you, and he was just wildly swinging his hammer, with no thought in his attacks, while Rhaegar moved with purpose.
Robert and Rhaegar are completely different. As you said, Robert is very instinctive and takes action, whereas Rhaegar seems content to live in his indecisiveness. You have Robert running up and down in full armour, and then Rhaegar relaxed in Tower of Joy, picking flowers; it’s quite jarring.
It really is! All of that helped people empathise with Robert's plight. He was running himself ragged trying to get the love of his life back, whom he thought was kidnapped. It makes me sad in a way. Robert always believed she was kidnapped, and if he found out the truth, it would be the end of him.
It was debated for a long time in the books and the show if Lyanna went of her own volition or was kidnapped. The Robert and Lyanna changes from the book is quite interesting because Ned, in the books, says how Robert only saw her beauty and not her boldness or strength, but in the play, it was the opposite.
She really snaps at him in that monologue, and that’s the actual moment he completely falls in love with her in Harrenhal, and the monologue after is the most honest he is. He strips himself bare, says he’s rude and clumsy, and self-depreciates. It’s the most he reveals of himself because of how much he falls in love with her in that moment.
Robert wasn’t even as honest with Ned, but we still got to see their bond.
Oh, I know. I’ve been sent a lot of fanart! Apparently, the kids are calling it Nedbert. If I’m being completely honest, the main takeaway I’ve got from this play is that people want Robert and Ned to end up together!
I wasn’t going to bring that up, but I did see a popular one is that Robert loved Lyanna because she was the closest female to Ned that he could find. I wasn’t going to ask you about it, but if you want to?
Yes! Yes, I’ve seen that. Absolutely! I’m all for it. I love Michael Abubakar (Ned Stark) more than anything. I love that boy so much. He’s one of the best actors I’ve ever worked with. One of my favourite quotes about acting is from Ian McKellen, who said acting is all about who you’re acting against. If you’re acting against someone really good, you will be. I was acting opposite Michael every night, who is astonishing, and so I was good because of it. He was the biggest component in helping me get to Robert. The text and direction are magic, but playing a scene with Michael is where Robert really arrived for me. It was very much instinct. We went out and were mates, hanging out, which I thought was more important than talking about it. Living it over talking about it.
I did see a behind-the-scenes video of you all in full costume watching the World Cup; it did look like you all became good friends.
To be honest, I’ve fallen completely and madly in love with every single cast member. Dominic is a genius and the best director I’ve ever worked with, who is fantastic at details, emotional moments, and staging, but the most miraculous thing is that he put together a cast of 36 people, and every single one of them is incredible. I cannot tell you how rare that is. That doesn’t happen in casts of 10 people, but for 36, and I love them so much, who will stay in my life.
Hopefully you all reunite in London with the news that the play is moving?
I want to play Robert for as long as possible. I wish it were happening sooner. It’s a huge beast of a play that can’t easily be moved, and just finding a suitable theatre will be a behemoth. A space must be designed for this play.
The play has an intimate feel to it no matter where you sit, and I hope it keeps some element of it from the RSC. Characters are in the audience in huge moments, and it felt more immersive.
I think it will.
You mentioned there was a lot of specificity from Domnic Cook about the world earlier and how that helped the process.
The approach was to understand the scale and scope of the world, what is at stake, and how quickly things are to escalate to war, but at the same time to balance the fantastical and the grounded. Coming at it from two opposing ways, Dominic managed to marry two ways of working that shouldn’t have worked, and he got the best performances out of every single cast member because of his approach. I’ll carry how he approached the characters and the world into every bit of work I do. It is why I love the job, and it helped me remember that it is revitalising.
The show is a triumph of showing what can be done practically and shows the human effort and the magnitude that can be created. The puppets are some of the most breathtaking moments of the show. It didn’t seem as if they were puppets; you can get lost in all of them.
I agree, and the unsung heroes of the play are the puppeteers. I forgot that they were there sometimes, as if I didn’t see them. In the jousting moment before Lyanna is crowned, there are moments in that I forgot. The biggest one is a dog at the very start of the play; I was watching Fred Davis (puppeteer) in rehearsals and was completely blown away by just how much they look like the animals from their performances.
When the show transfers to London, there might be some changes. Is there anything that you want to keep in for certain, or something added that didn’t make it to the RSC run?
A: Keep everything, Robert [laughs]! There is talk about making the play shorter, which I don’t want, and I could even go for longer! There were scenes that we didn’t get round to teching due to time and one that I really loved that I can’t say what that scene is. I hope it goes in next year. I just want the transfer to be a carbon copy because I loved it so much. As much as it pains me to say, it’s likely not going to be the same 36 people because of contracts and other things, which will be heartbreaking but understandable.
Hopefully the other half of Nedbert stays.
[Laughs] I honestly don’t know how I’ll be able to do the play without Michael. I would really need Michael and Harmony Rose-Bremner (Lyanna Stark). They are the most beautiful performers I’ve ever worked with, and she has an energy to bring out your most playful side, and you feel giddy just being around her because she’s such a joyful human being.
Book and show fans is coming to the play, but there are also people who might not know the world.
The play has been watched and loved by huge fans of the book and show, but also people who don’t know a single bit of Game of Thrones, which is crazy. It has every demographic to the theatre. It’s got regular theatre attendees who have never watched Game of Thrones and on the reverse. The audience was so varied. There were nights where we’d come off stage after a scene and say to each other, “it’s a fans night.” When Varys came onto the stage, he’d get a huge laugh, so we’d know it was a fan night. Sometimes you’d glance at the audience, and I saw someone with full Baratheon robes with antlered helms, Targaryen wigs and then people who had no idea about any of it. It’s lovely to see it all.
It’s a huge testament to everyone involved that people love it from all avenues. You’ve gotten the approval of all the fans and George himself.
It means everything. We had the press night, and then the reviews came out, which were overwhelmingly positive. We could have received one star from all the publications, but if George and the fans liked it, that would mean even more. They mean more in a deeper sense. Nobody will talk about what the press said; they talk about what George said, and that’s what we’ll remember. One time in stage door, I came out and I had a group of people chanting Robert which was incredible.
Nobody really talked about the press reviews, but it was everywhere about how George R.R. Martin liked it. Even before that, it was hard to get tickets.
It was the hottest ticket in town, and I hope it carries through to London; it was rare to not have a full house for us. We had loads of people fly in to see it.
There is a huge and dedicated fanbase. Did you have any moments you were excited for fans to see?
All the puppetry, because it’s such a spectacle, and I was excited for people to see that. A really cool one is during the very first performance: the Iron Throne rises from the ground at the start of Act 2, and it got a round of applause, which was really cool.
Callum Woodhouse can be seen in season seven of All Creatures Great and Small.
Game of Thrones: The Mad King play will transfer to London in 2027, with full details, including venue and dates to be confirmed, information and sign up found at www.gameofthronesonstage.com